Complaining :-)

[Sim]

This is a (slightly adapted) extract of a mail sent to me by a friend.

>> Here is an example of the inscrutability of Taiwanese internet teen
>> slang:
>>
>> In a piece of chat dialog there was a two-character expression "kao4
>> bei1" (rely, tumbler). I asked what it meant and was told it's actually a
>> rendition of the Taiwanese morphemes meaning "cry dad", which is a
>> curse. The idea seems to be that you're wishing the death of
>> someone's father on him. My guess of Mandarin cognates is: "ku1"
>> (to cry), "ba4" (dad).
>>
>> The character used for "bei1" is one of the mysterious characters in
>> my list ("tumbler", "goblet") that don't seem to have any modern
>> meaning. It is homonymous with the modern character for cup - and
>> was merged with it in simplified characters.

My reply (slightly adapted) was:

>> "khau-pE(h), khau-bu", in (modified) Missionary Romanization.
>>
>> A very well-known phrase. Alone ("khau-pEh"), it just meant complain
>> (e.g. even a formal complaint). In the full phrase it meant more "go on
>> about somthing", "harping", "carping", "grumbling", "excessive
>> complaining".
>>
>> My grandmother used it a lot. "pEh" means father, male elder of one
>> generation up (possible "fu" in Mandarin?). "bu" is "mu",
>> mother/female. I have no opinions on "khau". In normal Hokkien,
>> the word for "cry" is "hau".
>>
>> Oh, I just realised that I can cut and paste some kanji from the Minnan
>> forum which has just had kinship terms as the main topic this week.
>> pEh is 父 and bu is 母.
>>
>> I can put a query on the forum about "khau" for you.

So, does any reader of this forum know the character for "khau" in this context?

[ Actually, re-reading my reply, I think I say "khau-pEh, khau-bo", NOT "khau-pEh, khau-bu", where I personally think of "bo" as meaning "female", as in "kang1" (male (animal)) vs "bo2" (female (animal)). In my initial reply to my friend, I got confused with "bu" because it seemed like the natural complement of "pEh". But perhaps "bu" *is* the correct word, and mine is just a personal or a Penang mispronunciation. ]

Also, does anyone have any comments on the assertion that this is Taiwanese slang meaning *to curse*, or that it's related to wishing for the father's death??? I am not familiar with this usage. For me, it only means to complain.

Another phrase for "excessive complaining" is "hiam5-chit2 hiam5-pueh2" (in Amoy pronunciation), literally: "grumble seven, grumble eight". What's the character for "hiam"?

Hmmmm, do we Hokkiens complain a lot? .

[%sig%]

[Niuc]

Hi Sim

'khau3': we mainly use this for "to cry"/"to weep", rarely 'hau2'. I think 'khau3' is 哭 (ku1 in Mandarin), 'hau2' is 吼 (hou3 in Mandarin). 'hau2' also means "to howl", "to cry out", "to make noise/sound". In our dialect, 'khau3' is a generic term for "to cry"/"to weep", 'hau2' tends to mean "to cry with noise".

In our usage, the phrase is 哭父哭母 'khau3 pe7 khau3 bu2'. 母 sometimes can be read as 'bo2', but not here in ours. This phrase indeed is derived from the wailing ritual in Chinese funeral. Actually it's a taboo and considered rude although many people using it freely. It's kind of saying "very noisy like wailing one's parents' death".

Another phrase 無人教示 'bo3 lang5 ka3 si7' or 無教示 'bo3 ka3 si7' is used to scold people "no manners". Literally it means "no (family) education/discipline". It's also a taboo since it implies that the person scolded doesn't have parents to educate him.

'hiam5' is 嫌 (xian2 in Mandarin). We usually say 嫌東嫌西 'hiam3-tang7-hiam3-sai1' grumbling east & west.

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[Sim]

Hi Niuc,

Thanks for this information. It never ceases to amaze me how much variety there is in the different variants of Hokkien. I had never even heard of “khau” for “cry”, I only say “hau”.

The concepts “to cry” and “to make a noise” seem to be quite closely related, even in other languages...

In English, the normal word for what one sometimes does when one is sad (with or without noise) is “to cry”, and “to howl” is usually used for screaming; or for storms, winds, etc; or for wild animals: e.g. wolves. However, one of the usages of “to howl” can also be to mean crying. [ I suppose the howling of wolves might awaken some images of humans crying hysterically. ]

In Dutch, the normal word for what one sometimes does when one is sad (with or without noise) is “huilen”. I would venture to say that this is related to the English word "to howl". There is also the word “wenen”, but it is very formal, and means “to lament”, “to wail” or “to weep”.

In German, the normal word for what one sometimes does when one is sad (with or without noise) is “weinen”, clearly related to Dutch “wenen”. There is also the word “heulen”, which would appear to be related to “to howl”. It is (apparently) used primarily for wolves, sirens, and storms/winds, but in informal usage can also mean what one sometimes does when one is sad (also with or without noise).

Cheers,
Sim.

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