Hi all,
After some hesitation, I decided to start a new topic for this. There have been some references to Easter greetings from Niuc in the past, but I envisage having a number of questions on "Christian terminology in Hokkien" in the next few months, so rather than add my first question there, I have started a new topic.
I'm doing my family history project at the moment, and I came across an interview where my mother relates how as a child she used to say grace in Hokkien before every meal.
She gives the words as (I write them without tones):
kam-sia thi~ pe (Thank you, Heavenly Father)
siu~-su bi-niu (For providing sustenance/provisions?)
hO gun (lang) ciah (For us to eat)
ko-cu kong-lo sim-sO guan (???)
As you can see, I and my mother can work out lines 1 & 3. Line 2 is a vague guess on the part of my mother, who believes that the "bi" is rice. As for the whole of line 4, it's just a string of syllables whose meaning was never known to my mother (at least, not that she remembers now).
Would the more knowledgeable Christians among us be kind enough to give the hanzi, the (correct) pronunciation, and a translation into English of this prayer?
I don't know when I'll be posting other questions on this topic. It might be as late as after September of this year, but I know they will come eventually!
Thanks,
Sim.
Christian terminology
Hi Sim,
The grace said before meals you mentioned is a common one among the Holó Christians. Here is my transliteration:
感謝天父 Kám siā thinn pē
賞賜米糧 Siúnn sù bí niû
Hō· 阮 (通) 吃 Hō· gún (thang) chiáh
靠主功勞, 心所願 Khò Chú kong-lô, sim só· guān.
Line 1: 'Thank you Heavenly Father'. The pē is the vernacular for 'father' (no hanji). 父 hū is literary and is usually "borrowed" to write pē.
Line 2: 'For providing rice grains'. 賞賜 siúnn sù more properly means 'granting from a superior such as an emperor'. A very humble polite word for "providing".
Line 3: 'For us to eat'. Hō· is exactly the same as English 'for'. No Chinese cognate (hence, no hanji). Usually transliterated as 互. I inserted 通 tang 'so that we can...' as a possible transliteration of your optional (lang) unless you mean 'people'. Lastly, the Holo word chiáh is usually transliterated as 吃.
As an aside, there appears to be a good correspondence between for- and hō·, for examples:
Old English (and Old Frisian, Old Saxon) for 'for' > Holó hō· 'for'
Latin foris 'a door' > first syllable for- > Holó hō· 戶 as in 門戶 bûn hō· 'door'
Line 4: 'Relying on Lord's providence (is my) heartfelt wish'. 靠 khò means 'relying', 主 chú means 'Lord' (related to Greek kyrie), 功勞 is 'meritorious deeds' (勞 lô is 'reward, merit' = German Lohn), here translated as 'Providence'. 心所願 sim só· guān is a translation of 'Amen'.
Hope this makes sense to you.
Heruler
The grace said before meals you mentioned is a common one among the Holó Christians. Here is my transliteration:
感謝天父 Kám siā thinn pē
賞賜米糧 Siúnn sù bí niû
Hō· 阮 (通) 吃 Hō· gún (thang) chiáh
靠主功勞, 心所願 Khò Chú kong-lô, sim só· guān.
Line 1: 'Thank you Heavenly Father'. The pē is the vernacular for 'father' (no hanji). 父 hū is literary and is usually "borrowed" to write pē.
Line 2: 'For providing rice grains'. 賞賜 siúnn sù more properly means 'granting from a superior such as an emperor'. A very humble polite word for "providing".
Line 3: 'For us to eat'. Hō· is exactly the same as English 'for'. No Chinese cognate (hence, no hanji). Usually transliterated as 互. I inserted 通 tang 'so that we can...' as a possible transliteration of your optional (lang) unless you mean 'people'. Lastly, the Holo word chiáh is usually transliterated as 吃.
As an aside, there appears to be a good correspondence between for- and hō·, for examples:
Old English (and Old Frisian, Old Saxon) for 'for' > Holó hō· 'for'
Latin foris 'a door' > first syllable for- > Holó hō· 戶 as in 門戶 bûn hō· 'door'
Line 4: 'Relying on Lord's providence (is my) heartfelt wish'. 靠 khò means 'relying', 主 chú means 'Lord' (related to Greek kyrie), 功勞 is 'meritorious deeds' (勞 lô is 'reward, merit' = German Lohn), here translated as 'Providence'. 心所願 sim só· guān is a translation of 'Amen'.
Hope this makes sense to you.
Heruler
Hi Heruler,
Thank you very much for the hanzi rendition, and the detailed and well explained translation (including the explanation of the characters for the 'Hokkien specific' words).
It's often difficult, when translating, to convey both the general / overall meaning, and at the same time explain how the parts contribute to that meaning. You've managed to do that for lines 2 and 4 of the prayer (i.e. the ones which were causing us so much puzzlement), and I'm sure my mother will be delighted when I show it to her.
Cheers,
Sim.
Thank you very much for the hanzi rendition, and the detailed and well explained translation (including the explanation of the characters for the 'Hokkien specific' words).
It's often difficult, when translating, to convey both the general / overall meaning, and at the same time explain how the parts contribute to that meaning. You've managed to do that for lines 2 and 4 of the prayer (i.e. the ones which were causing us so much puzzlement), and I'm sure my mother will be delighted when I show it to her.
Cheers,
Sim.
Hi Sim & Heruler
Really glad to read many recent active threads in this forum!
Just a small note: in my hometown "amen" is usually hokkienized as 'sim1-cing3 so`2-guan7', also found in Singapore's Amoy Hymnal. It's just an addition of cing3 (zheng4 in Mandarin = right, correct; sorry I can't type Hanji with this computer) to your 'sim só· guān'.
Really glad to read many recent active threads in this forum!
Just a small note: in my hometown "amen" is usually hokkienized as 'sim1-cing3 so`2-guan7', also found in Singapore's Amoy Hymnal. It's just an addition of cing3 (zheng4 in Mandarin = right, correct; sorry I can't type Hanji with this computer) to your 'sim só· guān'.
Hi Niuc,
Great to see you again here
.
>> in my hometown "amen" is usually hokkienized
>> as 'sim1-cing3 so`2-guan7'
Very interesting. I believe my mother always said "a1-men3" or "a3-men3", which is why she had no idea what the last line of the prayer said for grace was.
I'll check with her when I speak to my parents this weekend. Are any of you aware of just using the borrowed word "a1/3-men3", in an otherwise very Hokkien context?
Sim.
Great to see you again here
.>> in my hometown "amen" is usually hokkienized
>> as 'sim1-cing3 so`2-guan7'
Very interesting. I believe my mother always said "a1-men3" or "a3-men3", which is why she had no idea what the last line of the prayer said for grace was.
I'll check with her when I speak to my parents this weekend. Are any of you aware of just using the borrowed word "a1/3-men3", in an otherwise very Hokkien context?
Sim.
Hi Sim
For all: have a nice weekend!
In Amoy POJ Bible, it's something like a1-beng7. Nowadays I hear more of variants like 'a-men', 'a-mn' or 'a-min' rather than 'a-beng'. Personally I like 'sim1-cing3 so`2-guan7' [still widely used by Christians in/from my hometown, i guess].SimL wrote:Are any of you aware of just using the borrowed word "a1/3-men3", in an otherwise very Hokkien context?
For all: have a nice weekend!
Jesus Loves Me
Hi All,
This is a song my mother sang when she was young. It's the Hokkien version of the well-known English song "Jesus Loves Me".
She gave me the words in Hokkien, and I googled using some of the important phrases which I knew (like "耶稣" "我知明" "圣经"), and got the *Mandarin* version of the text.
Based on the Mandarin characters, I used an on-line Mandarin-English dictionary ( http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php ) to find out meanings of words that were totally unfamiliar to me in both Hokkien and Mandarin (like "记载", "虽", "软弱", "替" and "赎").
So, now I think I understand the individual words of the song, and how they go to make up the full song.
I also looked up the text of the English version, so I have posted the song with 4 lines for each line of the song:
- The Hokkien transcription
- The hanzi for the Mandarin version
- A literal translation of the Hokkien words
- The corresponding line in English
Of course, I realise that the hanzi is incorrect / inappropriate for some of the Hokkien words, like "gin-na", "thia~", etc...
Also, I haven't written any tones, as I don't know them when my mother *sings*
.
Regards,
Sim.
-----
Ia Sò thia~ gua, gua cai beng
耶稣爱我我知明
Jesus loves me, I know clearly
Jesus love me this I know
in ui ki cai ti seng keng
因为记载在圣经
Because [it’s] recorded in the bible
For the bible tells me so
sue han gin-na sui luan liok
小汉孩子虽软弱
Although small children are weak
Little ones to Him belong
Ia Sò ue kiu u tue siok
耶稣会救有替赎
Jesus can save them, [as their] redeemer
They are weak but He is strong
-----
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
u ki cai ti seng keng
有记载在圣经
It’s recorded in the bible
The Bible tells me so
-----
This is a song my mother sang when she was young. It's the Hokkien version of the well-known English song "Jesus Loves Me".
She gave me the words in Hokkien, and I googled using some of the important phrases which I knew (like "耶稣" "我知明" "圣经"), and got the *Mandarin* version of the text.
Based on the Mandarin characters, I used an on-line Mandarin-English dictionary ( http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php ) to find out meanings of words that were totally unfamiliar to me in both Hokkien and Mandarin (like "记载", "虽", "软弱", "替" and "赎").
So, now I think I understand the individual words of the song, and how they go to make up the full song.
I also looked up the text of the English version, so I have posted the song with 4 lines for each line of the song:
- The Hokkien transcription
- The hanzi for the Mandarin version
- A literal translation of the Hokkien words
- The corresponding line in English
Of course, I realise that the hanzi is incorrect / inappropriate for some of the Hokkien words, like "gin-na", "thia~", etc...
Also, I haven't written any tones, as I don't know them when my mother *sings*
. Regards,
Sim.
-----
Ia Sò thia~ gua, gua cai beng
耶稣爱我我知明
Jesus loves me, I know clearly
Jesus love me this I know
in ui ki cai ti seng keng
因为记载在圣经
Because [it’s] recorded in the bible
For the bible tells me so
sue han gin-na sui luan liok
小汉孩子虽软弱
Although small children are weak
Little ones to Him belong
Ia Sò ue kiu u tue siok
耶稣会救有替赎
Jesus can save them, [as their] redeemer
They are weak but He is strong
-----
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Si, Ia Sò thia~ gua
是耶稣爱我
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me!
u ki cai ti seng keng
有记载在圣经
It’s recorded in the bible
The Bible tells me so
-----
Jesus Loves Me
Hi Sim
Thanks for reminding me of the beautiful song I learnt in Sunday School! I believe Heruler and other should know the song [in Hokkien] too.
The one I remember is almost identical to your mother's version, with slight variations.
4th line:
Ia So` ber kiu u thue siok
耶稣欲救有替赎
Jesus wants to save them, [providing] redemption
(orig: They are weak but He is strong)
chorus:
Cu Ia So thia* gua
主耶稣疼我
Lord Jesus loves me
(orig: Yes, Jesus loves me!)
thia*3= 疼 = love dearly, thia*3 also means pain, to love until it hurts!
I think gin-na is 兒仔 .
Thanks for reminding me of the beautiful song I learnt in Sunday School!
I believe Heruler and other should know the song [in Hokkien] too.The one I remember is almost identical to your mother's version, with slight variations.
4th line:
Ia So` ber kiu u thue siok
耶稣欲救有替赎
Jesus wants to save them, [providing] redemption
(orig: They are weak but He is strong)
chorus:
Cu Ia So thia* gua
主耶稣疼我
Lord Jesus loves me
(orig: Yes, Jesus loves me!)
thia*3= 疼 = love dearly, thia*3 also means pain, to love until it hurts!
I think gin-na is 兒仔 .