How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

I've been addicted to this song for weeks now and decided to romanize the lyrics, so that I could sing along. Just that when I got the lyrics, I realized the lyricist simply wrote most words in Mandarin. Okay, that's usual in Taiwanese songs, but it's the first time I saw a Taiwanese song written using so many Mandarin words. Nevertheless, I love the song! :mrgreen:

I tried to use the hanji according to MOE's 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 for practical reasons. Probably there are some errors, but romanization should be at least close to what it was supposed to be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sastikpc4Mw
晚安台灣 - 滅火器 / àm-an Tâi-oân - FIRE EX.
詞曲:楊大正
編曲:滅火器


Original lyrics
My version
Romanization

在這個安靜的晚上
我知道你有心事睡不著
想著你的過去 受盡凌遲
甘苦很多年


佇這个安靜的暗暝
我知影你有心事睏袂睏
想著你的過去 受盡量遲
甘苦真濟年


tī chit-ê an-chēng ê àm-mî
góa chai-iáⁿ lí ū sim-sū khùn-bōe-khì
siūⁿ-tio̍h lí ê kòe-khì siū chīn-liāng tî
kam-khó͘ chin chōe nî


在這個安靜的晚上
我知道你有心事睡不著
煩惱你的未來該向哪去
幸福在哪裡


佇這个安靜的暗暝
我知影你有心事睏袂睏
煩惱你的未來欲對佗位去
幸福佇佗位


tī chi̍t-ê an-chēng ê àm-mî
góa chai-iáⁿ lí ū sim-sū khùn-bōe-khì
hôan-ló lí ê bī-lâi beh tùi tòe khì
hēng-hok tī tó-ūi


啊~啊
黑暗他總會過去
太陽一出來仍然會是好天氣
你有一個美麗的名字


啊~啊
烏暗伊總會過去
日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
你有一个美麗的名字


ah~ ah
o͘-àm i chóng ē kòe-khì
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì
lí ū chi̍t-ê bí-lē ê miâ-lī


啊~啊
天公伯總會保庇
太陽一出來仍然會是好天氣
願你順遂台灣


啊~啊
天公伯總會保庇
日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
願你順序台灣


ah~ ah
thiⁿ-kong-peh chóng ē pó-pì
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì
gōan lí sūn-sūi Tâi-oân


願你平安台灣

願你平安台灣

gōan lí pêng-an Tâi-oân

Original lyrics extracted from ※ Mojim.com 魔鏡歌詞網
I'm yet to try it with a Taiwanese and see which one they'd read more correctly... :roll:
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Will hv to get at this later. The site was down where I am. :?: Kita mencari tempat baru? ¿Mudémonosaotrositio?
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Same here. こないだダウンタイム結構増えてきたんだな。 Yaperoadónde? xD
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Hi, FutureSpy--

I'm impressed that U were able to get the lyrics down so well. Seems like U've actually been learning Hoklo for quite some time?

A few things I would change:

siū chīn-liāng tî >> siū-chīn lêng-tī 受盡凌治

kam-khó͘ >> kan-khó͘ 艱苦

beh tùi tòe khì >> toé
(Small difference but not insignif. Like Canto and Viet songs, Hoklo songs are melodized with tone in mind. U can tell he's singing toe2 instead of toe3. Also, from what I understand, toe3 is a contraction of toe2 and khi0, so U wouldn't hear toe3 khi0.)

li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì >> ji̍t-thâu chhut-lâi iû-goân koh-sī hó-thiⁿ-khì
I didn't hear a chit8 in there.

Also a few things with the kanji. Sūnsuī would be 順遂. I've never heard this word used in spoken Hoklo, nor hardly even spoken Mandarin for that matter.

Also the general convention in TW is to use one kanji per syllable, so toé woudn't be written 佗位, although this makes sense to me. I think there's dialects of Hoklo in China w/ even more blends. At that pt it seems unavoidable, writing two kanji for one syllable.

你 for lí is just flat-out wrong, even though it's sanctioned by the MOE.
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

Thanks, amhoanna! m(_ _)m
I'm impressed that U were able to get the lyrics down so well. Seems like U've actually been learning Hoklo for quite some time?
Nah, I didn't get it by ear. Just imagine someone who patiently went through the whole song looking up for every word in more than one dictionary... That's me. :roll:
kam-khó͘ >> kan-khó͘ 艱苦
Hm... But aren't 艱苦 and 甘苦 two different words? And I have the impression he says kam, but I'm not sure. (I have a problem with final -m and -n, Portuguese is to blame for that!) My nasalizations are getting slightly better, yet my tendence to change final -m into -n isn't.
beh tùi tòe khì >> toé
Is it a contraction of to2-ui7? Actually I had no idea, but the entry for to2-ui7 in MOE gives toe2 and toe7 too, so I simply pickesd up the one that seemed closer to me (I still can't distinguish tones very well). Contractions are very scary to me, as I've seen cases when they take the tone from the last word, and in others they seem simply random. :evil:
Like Canto and Viet songs, Hoklo songs are melodized with tone in mind.
Something I've always wondered about tonal languages. Then it should be hard to make the lyrics in Hokkien for a song previously composed?
li̍t-thâu chi̍t chhut-lâi iû-ôan kám-sī hó thiⁿ-khì >> ji̍t-thâu chhut-lâi iû-goân koh-sī hó-thiⁿ-khì
I didn't hear a chit8 in there.
I do hear something there, but not chit8. It sounds to me like tit (like when t is slightly elided in normal speech, but I know it's not what he says) instead of chit.
Here's why live versions are useful sometimes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZRdQP5r_2g&t=1m39s (1m39s: there it shoulds like chit8 to me, but since the audio wasn't recorded directly to the cam, not reliable ;P)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTTb6Fs-SNI&t=3m34s (3m34s: I think I hear chit here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpZz2YmEyYo&t=2m (2m: a little clearer)
...and there are so many of them on YouTube but none decently recorded, so not worth checking all of them :\
Also a few things with the kanji. Sūnsuī would be 順遂. I've never heard this word used in spoken Hoklo, nor hardly even spoken Mandarin for that matter.
Oh-oh. A typo while looking up the word in the dictionary... Typed sun7-su7 instead and screwed up this one. :oops:

Also the general convention in TW is to use one kanji per syllable, so toé woudn't be written 佗位, although this makes sense to me. I think there's dialects of Hoklo in China w/ even more blends. At that pt it seems unavoidable, writing two kanji for one syllable.
你 for lí is just flat-out wrong, even though it's sanctioned by the MOE.
So if I wasn't to follow MOE, am I supposed to use 汝 instead?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Just imagine someone who patiently went through the whole song looking up for every word in more than one dictionary... That's me.

Impressive!
Hm... But aren't 艱苦 and 甘苦 two different words?
Yes. 艱苦 is a very common word and fits here, meaning-wise. 甘苦 is kind of a rare word -- I can't remember ever hearing it. The -n in 艱 tends to assimilate to -ng here.
Contractions are very scary to me, as ...
Contractions work in strange ways. Coanciu-type dialects seem to use more of them.
Is it a contraction of to2-ui7?
Yes. On second thought, toē and toè might be too, for some people.
Something I've always wondered about tonal languages. Then it should be hard to make the lyrics in Hokkien for a song previously composed?
A little harder, yes. I wrote Hoklo lyrics for half of Usher's song "Yeah" as part of an L.A. 台湾會舘 project some years back. I think the recording is actually up on Youtube. Certain lyrics didn't work b/c of the melody. Other times we just adapted the vocals to the lyrics, esp. easy with R&B. Maybe a few times I tried disregarding pitch-matching, but the results were never good. ... One line fit the melody so well that all heads turned in the studio the first time someone sang it at rehearsal.

There's no pitch-matching convention in Mando-pop, at least not in this era.
I do hear something there, but not chit8. It sounds to me like tit (like when t is slightly elided in normal speech, but I know it's not what he says) instead of chit.
Yeah, I tried another link and heard it. Chi̍t it is.
So if I wasn't to follow MOE, am I supposed to use 汝 instead?
This can be an interesting question. 你 is indefensible here, but most TWese who write Hoklo in kanji use it, esp. if they type using a bopomofo Mandarin input :lol: :roll: and many of them know it's wrong, but keep on using it. Reminding them that it's wrong ... is a good way to make enemies. :mrgreen: They like to bury their heads in the sand, but I belong to the Taiffalo (Google him) school of thought: if your cousin has his head in the sand, blow it away (the sand, of course) and make him face what's out there! If he can't handle it, then f**k him!
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by amhoanna »

Just seen on a social networking site:
鄧雨賢作曲、許丙丁作詞,台語老歌〈菅芒花〉足好聽,儂儂呵咾。毋過咱嘛愛老實評論講,伊个歌詞、旋律攏足優美動人,但是配起來有一个大問題,就是歌詞个語言聲調,佮旋律个音樂袂鬥搭。

若毋知影歌詞个儂,雄雄聽著,會毋知伊咧唱啥。像第一句歌詞「菅芒花 kuann-bang-hue」,即三字就語言來講,到「花」字,聲調上峘,但是伊个旋律唱做 Sol Sol Re,尾字煞降四度落去,聽起來煞變做 「kuann-bang-huè」,毋知是「啥乜『貨』」,真無自然。就台語歌謠,希望予儂一聽就了解意思,毋免閣看歌詞个基本精神來講,按呢無理想。

尤其是咱若欲創作台語囡仔歌,教囡仔唱,來傳承台語,即點閣卡重要!
FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by FutureSpy »

amhoanna wrote:This can be an interesting question. 你 is indefensible here,
Actually, one of my textbooks uses 汝, but I thought the author was trying to maintain the dialectal unity as much as possible :lol:

I'm still not studying it. I always read my language textbooks in advance to see what they have to offer me, and this one is probably the best one ever published in Japanese. It's called "台湾語会話", book plus a 3CD set is sold separately. It has 10 lessons on pronunciation, 45 basic lessons and 20 応用 ouyou lessons (I never really understood what kind of level 応用 is for Japanese people, but they either have 入門 and 応用, or they classify their courses in 初級,中級, 上級 and 超上級). The book is very compact (Japanese typical 単行本 pocket format and small letters) and explanations might not be as throughout as those in Maryknoll, but still pretty good (a lot better than the other textbooks I'm using right now). The good thing is that they always give variants for many words and even contractions. I'm loving it!
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

FutureSpy wrote:日頭一出來猶原敢是好天氣
Are you sure it's kám? To me it sound's like koh (the one the MoE writes 閣)

And btw, I do hear a tsi̍t there, albeit somewhat indistinct.
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: How -NOT- write in Hokkien

Post by Abun »

Oh and since the topic is already at 滅火器's songtexts, I have a problem with another one myself. I will adopt Spy's coloring system (if you don't mind, I'll change it if that means a copyright infringement :lol:), that is:

Original lyrics
My version (again in MoE-Hanji)
Romanization
悲歌 - 滅火器 / Pi-koa - FIRE EX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchPVbOuHnc

眼睛剛睜開的我 現在是下午三點半
我在這金色的房間裡怎麼看不見希望
十九歲青春的夢 現實就叫我要看破
茫茫浮沉的腳步聲 我們該向哪裡走


目睭抵褫開的我,這馬是下晡三點半
我踮在金色的房間內,哪看無希望
十九歲青春的夢,現實就叫阮愛看破
茫茫浮沉的跤步聲,阮該向佗位行


ba̍k-chiu tú thí-khui ê góa, chit-má sī ē-po͘ saⁿ tiám pòaⁿ
góa tiàm chāi kim-sek ê pâng-keng lāi, ná khòaⁿ-bô hi-bāng
cha̍p-káu hòe chheng-chhun ê bāng, hiān-si̍t tiō kiò gún ài khòaⁿ-phòa
bâng-bâng phû-tîm ê kha-pō͘-siaⁿ, gún kai hiòng tó-ūi kiâⁿ


一個人拿起吉他大聲唱出這條無奈的悲歌
想到父母期待和疼愛
我的心就痛 流著眼淚 大聲唱出這首悲歌給自己聽
爸爸媽媽 原諒我 愛作夢的傻孩子


一个人攑起ギター(an anglo-Japanese loan, which as for now the MoE hasn't assigned any character to, so I'll just use the Japanese katakana spelling here),大聲唱出這條無奈的悲歌
想著爸母期待佮疼痛
阮的心就疼,流著目屎,大聲唱出這條悲歌予家己聽
爸爸媽媽,原諒我,愛做夢的戇囡仔


chi̍t-ê-lâng gia̍h-khí gì-ta, tōa-siaⁿ chhiùⁿ-chhut chit-tiâu bô-nāi ê pi-koa
siūⁿ-tio̍h pē-bú kî-thāi kah thiàⁿ-thàng
gún ê sim tiō thiàⁿ, lâu-tio̍h ba̍k-sai, tōa-siaⁿ chhiuⁿ-chhut chit-tiâu pi-koa hō͘ ka-ki thiaⁿ
pa-pa ma-ma, goân-liōng góa, ài chòe-bāng ê gōng gín-á


現在我的生活 好像是一場夢
怎麼閃躲 怎麼驚惶 都沒有用
像草一樣的生命 隨風吹任人踏
但是我依然站在這大聲唱我們的歌


這馬我的生活,哪親像一場夢
按怎閃避,按怎驚惶,攏無較縒
親像草仔的性命,隨風吹任人踏
但是阮猶原徛佇遮大聲唱咱的歌


chit-má góa ê seng-oa̍h, ná chhin-chhiūⁿ chi̍t-tiûⁿ bāng
àn-chóaⁿ siám-phiah, àn-chóaⁿ kiaⁿ-hiâⁿ, lóng bô-khah-choa̍h
chhin-chhiūⁿ chháu-á ê sìⁿ-miā, sûi-hong chhoe līm lâng ta̍h
tān-sī gún iû-goân khiā tī chia tōa-siaⁿ chhiuⁿ lán-ê koa


[repeat the 一个人攑起ギター part]
I've actually got a couple of questions about this:
1. I don't quite understand the meaning of 十九歲青春的夢,現實就叫我愛看破. "When the dream I had had with 19 in my youth came real, I had to... accept it?"
2. I can't hear the last syllable of 想到父母期待和疼愛 clearly. To me it sounds like tam or possibly lang (I'm not yet able to hear the tones in the melody for sure, but I'd guess a low register), but that doesn't make much sense. Looking it up, I found thiàⁿ-thàng (疼痛), but as much as I listen, I can't hear an aspiration (on the other hand, I don't hear it in kî-thāi (期待), either). Could it be thiàⁿ-lâng (疼人)? Would fit the sound but to me the lâng feels like "somebody else". However, according to the context it should be "I" who is 疼ed.
3. I don't understand the meaning of 隨風吹任人踏, especially the jīm lâng (任人) part. Is this a pronoun (an abbreviation of jīm-hô-lâng (任何人), "anybody, no matter who" maybe?) or is 任 a verb, like "assign the task of 踏ing to 人"?
4. 按怎閃辟,按怎驚惶 is another part I'm not sure about. 按怎閃辟 is "how to avoid it", but 按怎驚惶? I only know kiaⁿ-hiâⁿ (驚惶) as an adjective meaning "terrifying, very scary", but here it's used like a verb: "how to x" (or combined with the lóng (攏) in the next verse rather "no matter how I [try to] x"...)
5. The song seems to use the pronouns góa(我), gún(阮), lán(咱) pretty much interchangeably. I heard about gún/goán sometimes denoting "I", rather than "we", but always had the feeling that usually only occurs when you refer to something from your in-group to an out-group (like "gún tau", "gún kong-si", "gún lāu-pē"). But I thought that gún and lán were pretty strictly distinguished, so you couldn't use lán interchangeably with gún, let alone góa... Or is 但是阮猶原徛佇遮大聲唱咱的歌 really supposed to mean "but we (but not you, listener) are still standing here, loudly singing our song (that we composed together with you)"?

Thanks in advance for your ideas.
Last edited by Abun on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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