Variants!

[Ah-bin]

Inspired by another thread, I've decided to start this one to discuss all the different ways there are to say the same thing in different kinds of Hokkien.

Go to town - Penang is loh-pho how about other kinds? Must be something different if you live in a flat place

Home - chhu, but in Taiwan they use "tau" Wa-e chhu = goan-tau = my/our house

Stand - khia, in Amoy this means "to live"

Fridge - sng-tu In Taiwan it's something else (I forgot)

To forget - bE-ki, but Taiwanese say bE-ki-tit

Three days ago - saN-jit-cheng or cha-saN-jit or saN-kang-cheng (Taiwan)?

Two years - nO-ni (Penang) nO-tang (Taiwan)

Get angry with him - Khi-hong ka i (Penang) Ka i siu-khi (Taiwan)

Afternoon - e-po (Penang) e-tau (Taiwan)

Spicy - lat (Penang) hiam (Taiwan)

Got any more variants? Any more that you know are different in different places?

[niuc]

Inspired by another thread, I've decided to start this one to discuss all the different ways there are to say the same thing in different kinds of Hokkien.

Hi Ah-bin, basically I can understand those variants but my variant usually has different preferences, as below.

Go to town - Penang is loh-pho how about other kinds? Must be something different if you live in a flat place

In Bagansiapiapi (峇眼 Ba5-gan2), we say 'khy3-pa1-dia4'. Town area is referred to as 'pa1-dia4' (pa1-jia4). I don't know the exact meaning of 'jia4'. Most probably due to the place was originally a forest, we use 'pa1' (forest) to refer to parts of the area, e.g. 'ting2-pa1' (upper forest) for southern part; 'e7-pa1' (lower forest) for northern part. The common word for other towns/cities (usually big ones) is 城市 'sia*5-chi7'.

Home - chhu, but in Taiwan they use "tau" Wa-e chhu = goan-tau = my/our house

In my variant, we usually use 'gun2-tau1' or 'gun2-nai7'. I think 'nai7' is from 內 'lai7' -> 'gun2-chu3-lai7'.

Stand - khia, in Amoy this means "to live"

'khia7' is both "to stand" and "to live" in my variant too. "to stay" is 'tua3'.

Fridge - sng-tu In Taiwan it's something else (I forgot)

Same, 'sng1-tu5'. Is it 'ping1-tu5' in Taiwan?

To forget - bE-ki, but Taiwanese say bE-ki-tit

'bue7-ki3'

Three days ago - saN-jit-cheng or cha-saN-jit or saN-kang-cheng (Taiwan)?

'sa*1-jit8-cai*5', cai*5 can be pronounced as 'cing5', 'jit8' is often pronounced as 'dit8'.

Two years - nO-ni (Penang) nO-tang (Taiwan)

We say 'nng7-ni5'. Interestingly, we use 'tang1' for school-year -> 'lin2-kia*2 thak8-te7-kui2-tang1_e0?' (e0 = 'e' with neutral tone). For "semester" we use 冊 'che4', so 'te7-sa*1-che4' is the third semester of primary school (first half of second year). However, we prefer 讀書 'thak8-cy1' to 讀冊 'thak8-che4'.

Get angry with him - Khi-hong ka i (Penang) Ka i siu-khi (Taiwan)

氣伊 'khi3_i0' ('i' in neutral tone).

Afternoon - e-po (Penang) e-tau (Taiwan)

'e7-po`1' is late afternoon, 'e7-tau3' is early afternoon (usually noon untill before 3pm).

Spicy - lat (Penang) hiam (Taiwan)

We use 辣 'lua8' for spicy (of chilli), 'hiam1' is pungent smell ('chau3-hiam1-hiam1'), 'hiang1' is for minty smell/flavour. We call chilli 番椒 'huan1-cio1'. In Singapore spicy is 'hiam1', chilli is is 'hiam1-cio1'.

Btw: farm is 農園 'long5-hng5'; to disturb is 亂 'luan7' (don't come to disturb -> mang1-lai5-luan7); market can be 菜市 'chai3-chi7'; police is 鎗兵 'ching3-ping1' in Bagansiapiapi. We use 木虱 'bak8-sat4' to refer to flea (etc) on bed/mattress/sofa etc, 虱母 'sat4-bu2' for those on human/animal.

[Ah-bin]

wow, those are great, thanks Niuc. Your Hokkien seems quite similar to Taiwanese in some ways. I like the word for police too.

I made a mistake about "two years" in Taiwan it's nng-tang, not nO-tang, and I couldn't remember fridge.

I thought of another one as well.

In Taiwan khng means "to put", but in Penang it's hE 下, and somewhere else it's pang 放

I wonder where the "pa" cames from for forest? IN Taiwan I think a forest is called chhiu-na 樹林

This just made me think of even more things too

a farmer - Taiwanese choe-chhit-lang (forgot how to write it 做[]人 Penang cho-chhan-e-lang 做田e人

and Taiwanese like to use 烏白 o-peh (they usually write it 黑白) for luan 亂, but not in the sense of disturb, but rather to do something chaotically or wildly, or stupidly., as in o-peh-kong 烏白講 "to talk nonsense" before

[SimL]

to disturb is 亂 'luan7' (don't come to disturb -> mang1-lai5-luan7)

and

Taiwanese like to use 烏白 o-peh (they usually write it 黑白) for luan 亂

The variety in Hokkien never ceases to amaze me!

In Penang Hokkien, I make a distinction between "luan7" (= "noisy", "confused", "chaotic"), and "cha2-luan5" (= "to disturb"). So, unlike in niuc's variant, one can't say "mang1-lai5-luan7" (or one could, but it would mean, "don't come and make a lot of noise", "don't come and confuse the issue/make trouble"). Instead (for the meaning under discussion) one must say, for example, "mang1-cha2-luan7-wa2!" (= "don't disturb me!"), "i cin-nia bo eng, wa bo suka khi cha-luan i" (= "He's very busy, I don't like to go and disturb him"). In this usage, in fact, the "-luan" can be left out: "mang1-cha2-wa2!" (= "don't disturb me!"), "i cin-nia bo eng, wa bo suka khi cha i" (= "He's very busy, I don't like to go and disturb him") are equally acceptable. Perhaps the "-luan7" in this case helps slightly as a disambiguator, to make sure that the listener doesn't think that the speaker means "don't fry me!", and "He's very busy, I don't like to go and fry him".

[SimL]

Spicy - lat (Penang) hiam (Taiwan)

Hmmm... My usage is more like niuc's. I say "luah8" not "lat8".

[SimL]

Sorry for posting such fragmented replies. I keep thinking of new things...

In Taiwan khng means "to put", but in Penang it's hE 下, and somewhere else it's pang 放

Penang Hokkien uses "pang3" in a number of very specific ways. Basically, its most general meaning is "release". So, to release a bird from a cage would be "pang he-le ciau". Even letting a dog out of the yard, for it to run around on the streets (and have it come back home) would be "pang": "tong kim wa khi pang kau hO i cau ti gua-bin" (= "I'm now going to let the dog out, for it to run around outside"). I guess this sense of "release" fits in with the Penang Hokkien usage "pang3-kang1" (= "(the official time) to finish work, at the end of the day"), and "pang3-kE2" (= "school holidays"). It even fits in with "pang-sai" / "pang-jio" (= "to pee / shit") [of course, being Hokkien, this had to come up ].

A specialized use is "pang3-au5" (= "to fly a kite"). Here, Hong explained that "au5" is actually a borrowing from Malay (from memory...) "wauw" (= "kite"). In my youth, I never knew any other word for "kite", and had no idea that it was not native Hokkien. But, even this specialized use has overtones of "release".

[SimL]

In Bagansiapiapi (峇眼 Ba5-gan2), we say 'khy3-pa1-dia4'. Town area is referred to as 'pa1-dia4' (pa1-jia4). I don't know the exact meaning of 'jia4'. I don't know the exact meaning of 'jia4'. Most probably due to the place was originally a forest, we use 'pa1' (forest) to refer to parts of the area, e.g. 'ting2-pa1' (upper forest) for southern part; 'e7-pa1' (lower forest) for northern part.

I found this very interesting, because - in this very specific context - the meaning of "pa1" has shifted from something specifically non-urban to something specifically urban. But you offer a tentative explanation based on the history of the area which seems quite plausible to me.

I wonder where the "pa" cames from for forest? IN Taiwan I think a forest is called chhiu-na 樹林

The word "pa1" is indeed quite interesting in itself. I seem to recall a discussion about it a long time ago on this Forum. If I recall correctly, Hong was of the opinion that it was not a native Hokkien word, and that it was only known in Malaysia and Singapore. I think he said that there wasn't a Chinese character for it, and that it wasn't known in Amoy and Taiwan, but I don't remember if anyone else ever confirmed this. I remember niuc saying at the time that the word was also known in Indonesia.

Niuc, outside of the specific context of Bagansiapiapi does "pa1" only mean "forest" in your variant? That's one of its meanings in Penang Hokkien, but it can also mean "plantation". One of the most common terms in my youth was "chiu7-leng1-pa1" (= "rubber plantation", "rubber estate"). Perhaps the general meaning is "a rural area with quite a lot of trees". Even my Amoy-speaking relatives used this word, but of course, they called it a "chiu7-ni1-pa1", because their word for "rubber" was "chiu7-ni1", not "chiu7-leng1". (It wouldn't surprise me if "leng1" and "ni1" were both just alternative pronunciations for the same character, as "l-" and "n-" are closely related sounds in Hokkien.) [BTW, in my youth, there was a huge number of rubber plantations in Malaysia. When we left Malaysia in the early 1970's they were just beginning to clear away the rubber trees and plant oil-palms. Nowadays, most of these rubber plantations seem to have been replaced by oil-palm plantations.]

In fact, perhaps "pa1" doesn't even have to have a lot of trees. My mother also speaks of a swampy area near their home which they called the "cui2-pa1" (i.e. "water"-pa1). They grew a lot of fruit trees and vegetables there, but it certainly wasn't completely covered by trees - there were also rows of vegetables, clumps of low bushes, and a "trellis" for growing "ci-gua" on vines (I think they're called "loofahs" in English - they can be eaten as a vegetable, or dried to make a sort of vegetable-based 'sponge'). And my mother also speaks of a part of the village she lived in which had communal furrows, i.e. where each family had 2-3 furrows, next to furrows belonging to other families - in contrast to whole private lots of land which they owned). This whole area was called the "kong1-si1-pa1" (= "communal"-pa1). If I understand correctly, there were hardly any trees in the "kong1-si1-pa1" - it was just a large collection of furrows.

But "cui2-pa1" and "kong1-si1-pa1" were only terms I heard about from my mother, not terms I knew of in my own youth. For me, there was only "chiu7-leng1-pa1" (= "rubber plantation") vs. "suaN1-pa1" (i.e. "mountain"-pa1 = "jungle").

In connection with this, we referred to the "Red Indians" we saw on TV (in programs like "The Lone Ranger" and some other series about the US cavalry) as "suaN1-pa1-huan1". [BTW, I don't mean to cause offence by using such a term. I only report the usage of my youth, in a time with less awareness of 'political correctness' and the feelings and sensitivities of other ethnic groups.]

[SimL]

In Penang Hokkien, I make a distinction between "luan7" (= "noisy", "confused", "chaotic"), and "cha2-luan5" (= "to disturb").

Oh, there's also "co3-luan5", also meaning "to disturb". I can't detect that much difference in meaning between "cha2-luan5" and "co3-luan5". Perhaps one subtlety is that "cha2-luan5" is more "an annoying sort of disturbance" (with less emphasis on an interruption, say perhaps by playing loud music for 1-2 hours), and "co3-luan5" is more neutral, actually "interrupting" someone, but not necessarily causing annoyance by that interruption (but not excluding annoyance, of course).

But that's only if I'm actually hunting for a subtle distinction. In normal sloppy usage, perhaps the two could be used interchangeably

[Ah-bin]

Hmmm... My usage is more like niuc's. I say "luah8" not "lat8".

and mine should be too....this is what happens when I don;t go and look things up sometimes. It's Cantonese, the "lat", I think.

[SimL]

It's Cantonese, the "lat", I think.

You're probably right. My Cantonese sucks bigtime, but I seem to recall "lat8-ciu2" (use POJ and Hokkien tones to write Cantonese !) as "chilli".