Before and after in Penang Hokkien

[Ah-bin]

I know how to say "ago" with times:

"Two years ago"
Chá nō• nî or nō• nî chêng
早兩年 or 兩年前

....and I know how to say "before" when I hadn't done something yet

"Before I had gone to school"
猶未去學堂个時
Ā-bōe khì óh-tn^g ê-sî

But how about
"Before I go out I have to shut all the windows"

and

"I have to be back before Saturday"

Does Penang Hokkien use "chêng" 前 in these cases?
Such as:

Wá chhut khì chêng tióh-beh khàm ka-liáu ê thang thâu-seng.
我出去前著beh khàm 共了个窗頭先

Wá pài-lák chêng tióh-beh túiⁿ lâi
我拜六前著beh轉來

Something about them seems a little unnatural to me, I've been listening out for them for a while now, and I'm not sure if I've heard these particular constructions. I've heard some speakers substitute "bi-fo•" placed at the beginning of the phrase. But with most english words they do actually know alternatives, they just use whatever comes out of their mouths first.

The last one I suppose I could say
Ā-bōe kàu pài-lák wá tióh-beh túiⁿ lâi
猶未夠拜六我著beh轉來
But the meaning seems a little different.

(I know 夠 for "arrive" will get some people a bit annoyed, but the sound fits perfectly, even though the meaning doesn't.)

[Ah-bin]

I forgot about "after" ! I'll wait a bit until I ask about that though, because I have most of my answers for that worked out.

[SimL]

I hope that the "good" Hokkien speakers will be able to give you a definitive answer.

In my case, I can only say the first (as a paraphrase), and can't say the second at all.

>> "Before I go out I have to shut all the windows"

wa be(h) chu(t)-khi e si, wa tioh-be(h) thau-seng kham ka-liau e thang-a
(literally) I want go-out <relative-particle> time, I have-to first close all <relative-particle> windows

or

wa be(h) chu(t)-khi e si, wa tioh-be(h) kham ka-liau e thang-a thau-seng
(literally) I want go-out <relative-particle> time, I have-to close all <relative-particle> windows first

or

wa be(h) chu(t)-khi e si, wa tioh-be(h) thau-seng kham thang-a ka-liau
(literally) I want go-out <relative-particle> time, I have-to first close windows all

or

wa be(h) chu(t)-khi e si, wa tioh-be(h) kham thang-a ka-liau thau-seng
(literally) I want go-out <relative-particle> time, I have-to close windows all first

I'd probably not have been able to think of it myself, but I think your alternative formulation for the second sentence is quite satisfactory.

[SimL]

I've heard some speakers substitute "bi-fo•" placed at the beginning of the phrase.

One very interesting thing was brought to my attention by Andrew. In some borrowed words like "khi-siEn" (= "to feel sorry for", "to pity", from Malay), the "-i-" is not the normal Hokkien "i". Instead, it's shorter (and lower). If Hokkien "i" is considered to be more or less IPA , then the "i" in "khi-siEn" is the "small-uppercase-capital-i" - often used to transcribe the short-i of German. It's more open and more central than .

I believe that the "i" used in "bi-fo•" is also closer to this "short-i" (though perhaps not as obviously so as in "khi-siEn"). You may notice that it sounds different from if they were to say "味-fo•".

Many thanks to Andrew for pointing this out about "khi-siEn". I only really registered this lately, when re-reading some old postings.

[SimL]

PS. I just noticed that it's quite similar to the "bi-" in "bi-po" (= "bat"), where I drop the post-vocalic consonant of the first syllable. Indeed, I never knew that "bi-po", and "pa-tO" (= "stomach") had post-vocalic consonants in the first syllable until just a few months ago. For "ba-ciu" (= "eye") I did know this though, because "bak" is clear even to someone of my lack of knowledge of Chinese.

So, what I wanted to say, is that you could pretend that "bi-fo•" is actually "bih-fo•", with a dropped post-vocalic consonant .

[Andrew]

But how about
"Before I go out I have to shut all the windows"

and

"I have to be back before Saturday"

Does Penang Hokkien use "chêng" 前 in these cases?
Such as:

Wá chhut khì chêng tióh-beh khàm ka-liáu ê thang thâu-seng.
我出去前著beh khàm 共了个窗頭先

I would say "Wa boeh chhut-khi e-si to-boeh kham thang-a (mui*) thau-seng". It is a bit of a circumlocution.

Wá pài-lák chêng tióh-beh túiⁿ lâi
我拜六前著beh轉來

This seems the best way to say it for me, maybe even without the 'cheng'

The last one I suppose I could say
Ā-bōe kàu pài-lák wá tióh-beh túiⁿ lâi
猶未夠拜六我著beh轉來

This sounds awkward.

[Andrew]

(deleted)

[Ah-bin]

Great! thanks Andrew and Sim! Just as I thought, certain cheng constructions that exist in Taiwanese and Amoy Hokkien are unnatural in Penang.

[Andrew]

Great! thanks Andrew and Sim! Just as I thought, certain cheng constructions that exist in Taiwanese and Amoy Hokkien are unnatural in Penang.

Is it not i-cheng in Amoy and Taiwan?

[Ah-bin]

Oh yes, that's it. I think they have liau-au 了後 in Amoy for "after" though. I'm not so sure though.