In an attempt to piggy-back on the theme of diversity in the Minnan dialect (with an emphasis on the word diversity, which I gather is a contentious topic for some!)...
For those of you who have lived in Penang long enough, have you noticed that even within an already-specific sub-dialect of Minnan such as Penang Hokkien, there exists different strains of the dialect? The listener is sub-consciously aware of the differences, yet still identifies these different strains as Penang Hokkien.
Without being academic in my classifications (and here, the reader will excuse my anachronisms, as they are really identifiable traits/aspects of the speakers!), I can roughly pinpoint the following:
1. The older vs. younger generation
2. The Chinese vs. non-Chinese educated
3. Native or non-native Hokkien by descent
4. The 'aunties'
5. The Peranakan strain
To note that the above groups are not mutually-exclusive, but rather intersect each other at various points.
Some idiosyncrasies that I have noted:
1. One notices that the 'musical' tone (mainly attributed by a more pronounced 'tilt' in the Rising Tone #2) is more pronounced among the younger speakers, and the vowels are dragged somewhat longer. However, one finds that this 'tilt' is somewhat more muted for the Chinese-educated younger generation than their non-Chinese educated contemporaries.
2. The non-Chinese educated tend to use th'an-a instead of 當今 tong-kim for "now" more than the Chinese-educated. In my experience, the converse is not true, i.e. while there are non-Chinese educated speakers who use tong-kim, I have yet to meet a Chinese-educated who uses th'an-a. The intrusion of 'Mandarin-isms' is also another (albeit late) characteristic - by that, I am not referring to out-and-out Mandarin words pronounced in Mandarin, but Modern Standard Chinese vocabulary pronounced in Hokkien.
3. The 'aunties'. Again, please please pardon my stereotyping! The Penang aunties (by that, I am referring to the generation of Penang ladies who are currently in their 50's-60's) share the 'musical' trait of the younger speakers a lot more than their male contemporaries. And have you noticed that the aunties tend to speak a little slower and enunciate normally 'merged' words more distinctly? All the Penang aunties I have encountered never merge 真正 chin-chiaⁿ as simply chia, but deliberately pronounce both morphemes as clearly-separate words, and with a slightly weightier ch- initials (they appear to exhale with each syllable).
4. This is probably an obvious point: If one pays close enough attention to speakers of Penang Hokkien who are not Hokkien by descent (i.e. their "home dialect" is not Hokkien), sooner or later there will be intrusions of grammatical and lexical features that are atypical of Penang Hokkien - no matter how much it 'sounds' like Penang Hokkien. On the other end of the scale, one will find less words and lexical elements typical of the dialect as spoken by the non-native Hokkien speaker (mostly very colloquial terms that are peculiar to the dialect) and the speaker will tend to use a more conservative vocabulary.
5. Here is one that I have not quite been able to adequately isolate: The Penang Baba/Nyonya strain. The fairly-extensive borrowing of Malay words into Penang Hokkien has made it somewhat difficult to separate Baba/Nyonya Hokkien from the Sinkhek Hokkien, both sharing a somewhat-common Chiang Chiu origin. I considered using degree of Malay borrowing as a possible measure, but again this is difficult, as Malay-originated terms exist in Hokkien as spoken as far north as Kedah and down south to Singapore, and are also well-documented in several China-originated reference sources on the Minnan dialect (廈門方言誌 being one example). That said, I have observed that users of jari are mutually-exclusive from those who use 手指 ch'iu-cai, gulai vs. 咖喱 ka-li. Though, I suspect this distinction has, over the generations, already crossed the lines between Peranakan and Sinkhek Penang Hokkien.
Just my random ramblings...
Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Hi Mark
Although I don't know much about Penang Hokkien, I find your points very interesting. Please write more
In regard to your point 2, in the context of my variant (not Penang), we use both 當今 'tong1-kim1' and 'ta*1' (written as 今 in Christian literature), usually interchangable but the former is more frequently used. From what I know, 'tong1-kim1' has been very natural and "integral" in my variant. It has been used by all including those who never went to school (very few of my parents' generation went to school). In this context, I don't think it is due to Mandarin influence, but it is a literary Hokkien phrase that has become part of daily speech. Btw I am not sure if our 'ta*1' may be related to Penang's "th'an-a".
Although I don't know much about Penang Hokkien, I find your points very interesting. Please write more
In regard to your point 2, in the context of my variant (not Penang), we use both 當今 'tong1-kim1' and 'ta*1' (written as 今 in Christian literature), usually interchangable but the former is more frequently used. From what I know, 'tong1-kim1' has been very natural and "integral" in my variant. It has been used by all including those who never went to school (very few of my parents' generation went to school). In this context, I don't think it is due to Mandarin influence, but it is a literary Hokkien phrase that has become part of daily speech. Btw I am not sure if our 'ta*1' may be related to Penang's "th'an-a".
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Then there are people who use na-lai-na.... vs. those who use ju-lai-ju.... for "more and more" I chose the second, but when I was talking to John Ong I noticed he uses the first.
There are people who use -ioN in place of -iauN too. I didn't notice it before Aokh alerted me to it, but they do exist.
I also noticed recently that some people say lam-bin instead of lai-bin for "inside"
The fun thing for me is that I get to choose what sort of speaker I want to be!
I don't mind sounding a bit old-fashioned, because the older speakers have a rich inventory of words and expressions.
I kind of like being Peranakan too, so I make sure I use the Malay words that are in common use by different speaker on the podcasts and so on. (Tapi, jaga, mata, jali, jamban, mana) but at the same time I try to remember the "pure" Hokkien words that correspond, for when i bump into Taiwanese, so I can trick them into thinking I was learning Taiwanese all along. It doesn't work now, because they say my accent is definitely SEAsian Hokkien now.
Although I'm "English educated" (Ang-mO sai e Ang MO紅毛屎个紅毛
) I try not to use English words for grammatical particles like "after that" or "even though", because there are ways to express these things in Penang Hokkien that everyone understands...and because I have the feeling that as a native Ang-mO, it is being ten times lazier using English in my Hokkien than it is for a native Hokkien speaker.
After 14 years of learning Mandarin, I suppose I can call myself "Chinese-educated" too, which means whether I want it or not, my Hokkien has some of the advantages and disadvantages that come from being literate in written Chinese!
There are people who use -ioN in place of -iauN too. I didn't notice it before Aokh alerted me to it, but they do exist.
I also noticed recently that some people say lam-bin instead of lai-bin for "inside"
The fun thing for me is that I get to choose what sort of speaker I want to be!
I don't mind sounding a bit old-fashioned, because the older speakers have a rich inventory of words and expressions.
I kind of like being Peranakan too, so I make sure I use the Malay words that are in common use by different speaker on the podcasts and so on. (Tapi, jaga, mata, jali, jamban, mana) but at the same time I try to remember the "pure" Hokkien words that correspond, for when i bump into Taiwanese, so I can trick them into thinking I was learning Taiwanese all along. It doesn't work now, because they say my accent is definitely SEAsian Hokkien now.
Although I'm "English educated" (Ang-mO sai e Ang MO紅毛屎个紅毛
) I try not to use English words for grammatical particles like "after that" or "even though", because there are ways to express these things in Penang Hokkien that everyone understands...and because I have the feeling that as a native Ang-mO, it is being ten times lazier using English in my Hokkien than it is for a native Hokkien speaker. After 14 years of learning Mandarin, I suppose I can call myself "Chinese-educated" too, which means whether I want it or not, my Hokkien has some of the advantages and disadvantages that come from being literate in written Chinese!
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Hi, niuc,
Yup, I agree that 當今 is not a Mandarin intrusion (else, it would have been 現在!), and I believe it has been just as much an integral part of Penang Hokkien. What I meant is that for some reason, I have never heard th'an-a used by the Chinese-educated Penangites before, only the non-Chinese educated.
Hi, Ah-bin,
While I have heard 若來若... na-lai-na... used in Penang before, my experience has been that it is far less commonly-used than 愈來愈... ju-lai-ju....
For lam-bin instead of lai-bin, that one I have not heard before, and am inclined to attribute it to what I call "corruption-by-lazy-tongue" syndrome (the same way 因為 in-ui has ended up as eng-goe with some speakers). What I have heard is la-bin (i.e. dropped -i ending, but compensated by a longer-drawn -a).
Yes, I support the model you adopt, i.e. acceptance of the common Malay borrowings (and here, I nod in Sim's direction on using his grandmother's recognition of the words as a yardstick for acceptance into the general "canon"). In a previous post, I mentioned a parallel with English as spoken by the various English-speaking countries and communities (as a first language, I mean). For want of a better example, an Englishman's Cockney and calling a fool a "proper Charlie" would probably confound his Australian counterpart just as much as when the latter says "pot, thanks" to his American colleague when asking for a beer. As long as we all remember the lowest common denominators when speaking to people from outside of one's creole (i.e. "fool" and "drink" in this case) and there is a curtailment of really injudicious substitution of words (of late, mostly English), I think the colour provided by these "local flavours" adds life to the language as a whole.
Part of the reason I sometimes shy away from the term "Penang Hokkien" is because in some ways, it is a bit of an anachronism. This sub-dialect really stretches across to the states of Kedah and Perlis in the north, and to Taiping in the south - though one does detect that the accent starts departing from Penang Hokkien on both extremeties. But in broad terms, one would seldom be able to tell a speaker from, say, Sungai Petani or Jitra in the state of Kedah from a Penangite (short of some dead give-away prefixes and suffixes peculiar to Kedah). Here, again, is another strain/strata within what we treat as an already very specific sub-division of the Minnan dialect commonly known as "Penang Hokkien".
Some other (random) examples I can think of to illustrate the variances within Penang Hokkien:
1. 明朝 miaⁿ-cai > ma-cai Note the fusion -ia- to -a- and loss of the nasal
The former form, when articulated in full by an older generation Penangite, would pass off unnoticed, but if used by a younger speaker, one would tend to guess that he is likely not a local Penangite (though, if he used the intermediate form mæ-cai, he would probably get past the filters).
2. 今日 kin-jit > kæ-jit (fusion of kin-a-jit)
Both forms are well-heard even among the younger generation Penangites - though, again, the latter seems to be used more by the non-Chinese educated.
3. tilam vs. 褥仔 jiok-a
Yup, I agree that 當今 is not a Mandarin intrusion (else, it would have been 現在!), and I believe it has been just as much an integral part of Penang Hokkien. What I meant is that for some reason, I have never heard th'an-a used by the Chinese-educated Penangites before, only the non-Chinese educated.
Hi, Ah-bin,
While I have heard 若來若... na-lai-na... used in Penang before, my experience has been that it is far less commonly-used than 愈來愈... ju-lai-ju....
For lam-bin instead of lai-bin, that one I have not heard before, and am inclined to attribute it to what I call "corruption-by-lazy-tongue" syndrome (the same way 因為 in-ui has ended up as eng-goe with some speakers). What I have heard is la-bin (i.e. dropped -i ending, but compensated by a longer-drawn -a).
Yes, I support the model you adopt, i.e. acceptance of the common Malay borrowings (and here, I nod in Sim's direction on using his grandmother's recognition of the words as a yardstick for acceptance into the general "canon"). In a previous post, I mentioned a parallel with English as spoken by the various English-speaking countries and communities (as a first language, I mean). For want of a better example, an Englishman's Cockney and calling a fool a "proper Charlie" would probably confound his Australian counterpart just as much as when the latter says "pot, thanks" to his American colleague when asking for a beer. As long as we all remember the lowest common denominators when speaking to people from outside of one's creole (i.e. "fool" and "drink" in this case) and there is a curtailment of really injudicious substitution of words (of late, mostly English), I think the colour provided by these "local flavours" adds life to the language as a whole.
Part of the reason I sometimes shy away from the term "Penang Hokkien" is because in some ways, it is a bit of an anachronism. This sub-dialect really stretches across to the states of Kedah and Perlis in the north, and to Taiping in the south - though one does detect that the accent starts departing from Penang Hokkien on both extremeties. But in broad terms, one would seldom be able to tell a speaker from, say, Sungai Petani or Jitra in the state of Kedah from a Penangite (short of some dead give-away prefixes and suffixes peculiar to Kedah). Here, again, is another strain/strata within what we treat as an already very specific sub-division of the Minnan dialect commonly known as "Penang Hokkien".
Some other (random) examples I can think of to illustrate the variances within Penang Hokkien:
1. 明朝 miaⁿ-cai > ma-cai Note the fusion -ia- to -a- and loss of the nasal
The former form, when articulated in full by an older generation Penangite, would pass off unnoticed, but if used by a younger speaker, one would tend to guess that he is likely not a local Penangite (though, if he used the intermediate form mæ-cai, he would probably get past the filters).
2. 今日 kin-jit > kæ-jit (fusion of kin-a-jit)
Both forms are well-heard even among the younger generation Penangites - though, again, the latter seems to be used more by the non-Chinese educated.
3. tilam vs. 褥仔 jiok-a
-
AndrewAndrew
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Of course 'Penang' Hokkien extends all the way to northern Sumatra. But Penang is the obvious centre.
I have noticed the than-a / tong-kim dichotomy as well. I'm not sure about others though.
As for pronunciations, mine has probably changed a lot since learning POJ, to the extent that I felt the need to 'correct' Ah-Bin's transcription of Penang-Hokkien-as-it-is-spoken when he was writing in Hokkien. Obviously, most of the time people say e.g. chhai-tam-a rather than chhai-tiam-a, ma-chai rather than mia-chai, etc.
The one I did notice when growing up was some people saying 我 goa instead of wa. Also, some people say 下底 E-te and some people say e-te. I have also noticed the -iON vs iauN difference. Also some say 復較 koh-kha and some khoh-kha.
By the way, what is the correct spelling of khæn2? It seems to be used as some sort of a classifier of persons.
I have noticed the than-a / tong-kim dichotomy as well. I'm not sure about others though.
As for pronunciations, mine has probably changed a lot since learning POJ, to the extent that I felt the need to 'correct' Ah-Bin's transcription of Penang-Hokkien-as-it-is-spoken when he was writing in Hokkien. Obviously, most of the time people say e.g. chhai-tam-a rather than chhai-tiam-a, ma-chai rather than mia-chai, etc.
The one I did notice when growing up was some people saying 我 goa instead of wa. Also, some people say 下底 E-te and some people say e-te. I have also noticed the -iON vs iauN difference. Also some say 復較 koh-kha and some khoh-kha.
By the way, what is the correct spelling of khæn2? It seems to be used as some sort of a classifier of persons.
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
Hi Mark,
Thanks for creating this topic. Indeed, these differences are very interesting.
I've always meant to try and collect as complete as possible a list of Malay words in my Hokkien, and this topic might just be the inspiration for me to do so. Then people like Andrew could comment on which ones are totally unfamiliar or only passively familiar to him, which would then give a nice indication of which words are "core" Malay borrowings into Penang Hokkien, and which ones are restricted to Babas. If people like niuc then commented, it would show which ones are known in Indonesian Hokkien, which would throw even more light on the situation. In any case, I'm away on vacation soon, so I won't be able to do anything about it until I get back. But I look forward to doing this.
Niuc, Ah-bin, Andrew: thanks for your comments. Very interesting to read.
Here's my feedback for the moment on the words already mentioned ("pseudo-sandhi" tone written for the non-final syllables of all the compounds given). I only know "jari", which I pronounce only as "ja1-li2"; I had no idea what the native Hokkien word for it was. I actively use only "gu3-lai2", but am familiar with "ka1-li2" from the dish "ka1-li1-mai7-fan5" (yummy!), but here, people will of course notice that "mai3-fan5" is a borrowing from Cantonese. I guess I'm a "non-Auntie", as I always merge "cin-ciaN" into one syllable as "ciaN". I use "tong-kim" and "than-a" interchangeably. I always say "ma-cai", though I've heard "miaN-cai". 今日 is only ever "kiaN-jit" for me, which I guess is a shortened form of "kin-a-jit". I'm familiar with both "ti-lam" and "jiok-a", but bedsheets are only "jiok-a-ta". I actively use only "ju-lai-ju..."; I suppose I would have understood "na-lai-na...", but I don't recall hearing it even passively as a child. I only say "chai-tiam-a", never "chai-tam-a" (indeed, I was unaware of its existence). [Having said that, I may have heard people saying that, but just never noticed.] Very interesting what Andrew says about "gua", because I had a heated discussion with my dad once, where he insisted that his whole family only said "gua", never "wa". At the time I was convinced that all Penang Hokkiens said "wa" (indeed, *I'm* part of his family, and *I* never say "gua"!) so I countered that he'd learnt his "gua" from my non-Penang Hokkien mother, which he vehemently denied (I guess I'll have to get back to him on that one!). I myself say "e-te", but I'm familiar with people saying "E-te". I think it's even very common for people to say "a-te" (but please feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong, of if people have never heard this). I think I use "ko-kha" or "kho-kha" interchangeably. I always drop the "-h" in the first syllable though.
>> By the way, what is the correct spelling of khæn2? It seems to be used as some sort of
>> a classifier of persons.
I recall vaguely that this word has come up before on the Forum, but I might be wrong. I pronounce it "khiEn2", and I use it interchangeably with "khioh4", but neither as a classifier. I use both just to mean "guy", and even then almost exclusively in the fixed expression "cit-khiEn" or "cit-khiok" ("cit"="this"), for example "cit-khioh/khiEn ciaN phaiN-si" (= "this guy is very mean/spiteful/unpleasant", or – in the case of children/teenagers - "this boy is very naughty").
Thanks for creating this topic. Indeed, these differences are very interesting.
I've always meant to try and collect as complete as possible a list of Malay words in my Hokkien, and this topic might just be the inspiration for me to do so. Then people like Andrew could comment on which ones are totally unfamiliar or only passively familiar to him, which would then give a nice indication of which words are "core" Malay borrowings into Penang Hokkien, and which ones are restricted to Babas. If people like niuc then commented, it would show which ones are known in Indonesian Hokkien, which would throw even more light on the situation. In any case, I'm away on vacation soon, so I won't be able to do anything about it until I get back. But I look forward to doing this.
Niuc, Ah-bin, Andrew: thanks for your comments. Very interesting to read.
Here's my feedback for the moment on the words already mentioned ("pseudo-sandhi" tone written for the non-final syllables of all the compounds given). I only know "jari", which I pronounce only as "ja1-li2"; I had no idea what the native Hokkien word for it was. I actively use only "gu3-lai2", but am familiar with "ka1-li2" from the dish "ka1-li1-mai7-fan5" (yummy!), but here, people will of course notice that "mai3-fan5" is a borrowing from Cantonese. I guess I'm a "non-Auntie", as I always merge "cin-ciaN" into one syllable as "ciaN". I use "tong-kim" and "than-a" interchangeably. I always say "ma-cai", though I've heard "miaN-cai". 今日 is only ever "kiaN-jit" for me, which I guess is a shortened form of "kin-a-jit". I'm familiar with both "ti-lam" and "jiok-a", but bedsheets are only "jiok-a-ta". I actively use only "ju-lai-ju..."; I suppose I would have understood "na-lai-na...", but I don't recall hearing it even passively as a child. I only say "chai-tiam-a", never "chai-tam-a" (indeed, I was unaware of its existence). [Having said that, I may have heard people saying that, but just never noticed.] Very interesting what Andrew says about "gua", because I had a heated discussion with my dad once, where he insisted that his whole family only said "gua", never "wa". At the time I was convinced that all Penang Hokkiens said "wa" (indeed, *I'm* part of his family, and *I* never say "gua"!) so I countered that he'd learnt his "gua" from my non-Penang Hokkien mother, which he vehemently denied (I guess I'll have to get back to him on that one!). I myself say "e-te", but I'm familiar with people saying "E-te". I think it's even very common for people to say "a-te" (but please feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong, of if people have never heard this). I think I use "ko-kha" or "kho-kha" interchangeably. I always drop the "-h" in the first syllable though.
>> By the way, what is the correct spelling of khæn2? It seems to be used as some sort of
>> a classifier of persons.
I recall vaguely that this word has come up before on the Forum, but I might be wrong. I pronounce it "khiEn2", and I use it interchangeably with "khioh4", but neither as a classifier. I use both just to mean "guy", and even then almost exclusively in the fixed expression "cit-khiEn" or "cit-khiok" ("cit"="this"), for example "cit-khioh/khiEn ciaN phaiN-si" (= "this guy is very mean/spiteful/unpleasant", or – in the case of children/teenagers - "this boy is very naughty").
Re: Different strains within Penang Hokkien
I think it came from "khian" (somewhere else I wrote about how I thought it was from Hakka or Teochiu, but I can't remember) but is usually pronounced as if it were spelt "khEn". This happened with "hian" as well, which has become "hEn" as in "hEn-tioh".
and I think that might be Hakka......I'm guesssing it might be 件 borrowed in from some other dialect.