Burmese Hokkien

[Ah-bin]

Since we've been talking about Thailand a lot recently, I wondered if anyone has ever come across Hokkien speakers from Burma. I met one in Canberra once, about five years ago, and she seemed to understand my rudimentary Taiwanese, but I can't remember how she spoke back. I remember she was a refugee from years back. I also remember having gone to look for information about Hokkiens in Burma, and I think I read they usually lived in urban areas. I have wondered recently whether they speak something similar to northern Malaysian Hokkien, but since I haven;t had the chance to bump into a speaker again, I cannot say.

[amhoanna]

I met an ex-Hokkien speaker from Burma once. She left Burma at the age of 12 or 13 and somehow found a way to forget Hokkien and Burmese. Her Hokkien was gone w/o a trace. Maybe the "bad old days" were really pretty bad.

I heard that Holo is or was mostly spoken in Yangon and points south. On a map, Yangon and the tail of Burma "look" like Holo territory for sure. Seeing as how there's next to no info on the web in Eng or Mand, I'm guessing that area is just really cut off. I guess someone will just have to go there. Who knows, maybe they speak an "archaic" version of Penang-Medan Hokkien.

[amhoanna]

Come to think of it, I also met a fortuneteller in the streets of Thô'áhn̂g, Taiwan, who spoke Holo and came from Burma, probably a long time ago. She sounded Taiwanese, but she quickly switched to Mandarin. I got the feeling that she only uses Holo to get people's attention——kā lâng giú'oá. I can't blame her——you're only asking for trouble if you try to speak non-Taiwanese Holo in Taiwan.

[amhoanna]

Interesting blog for Burma, with references to Hokkian--the place, not the lingo:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4fdcaff60100px9i.html

Kind of glancing:
http://big5.chinaqw.cn:89/node2/node116 ... 41415.html
http://xmmdlyh.blog.163.com/blog/static ... 534426726/

[xiaojian]

My father's side are actually Hokkiens from the delta region in Burma (my grandfather has ancestry from Longxi, idk abt my grandmother). Only my grandparents and older aunts and uncles can converse in fluent Hokkien (and Mandarin)--the younger ones, my father included, speak mostly Burmese, but can understand Hokkien, not Mandarin (mostly because of language education policies in socialist-era Burma that restricted Chinese language education immensely--a entire generation of Burmese Chinese were affected).

I don't understand much Hokkien, unfortunately =( My cousins who have both parents as Hokkien speakers can understand and speak a bit, but the rest of the aunts and uncles married outside the dialect group (mostly Hakka, and 1 Toisan), so the common languages in my family are English and Burmese.

But I have a great interest in learning it so I can pass this language on. Any insights are welcome

Some features I've noticed:
- 汝 lu, not li for "you"
- 我 wa, not gua for "me"
- -u rhyme instead of -i ('chopsticks' 箸 is tu -- borrowed into Burmese)
- -i rhyme instead of -e ('older sister' 阿姊 is ah-chí, not ah-che)
- -e rhyme instead of -oe ('cake/pastry' 粿 is ke, not koe)
- -ua -ue diphthongs are almost like a -w- medial, as in Burmese ('big' 大 is twa, not tua)
- nasalized 'ah' - nicknames and grandparent terms more commonly use 俺 (an) than 阿 (a) (e.g. 阿明 = an-bein; 阿公阿嬤 = 俺公俺嬤)
- nasalized finals, almost identical to those in French (-ng is pronounced -n, as in 紅包 'an-pau' or 俺公 'an-kon' or 食飯 'cha pn') - probably reflects Burmese phonology (Burmese's 3 nasal finals, -n, -m, -ng have merged to 1, only preserved in spelling)
- softened -k/-p/-t endings (glottal stop like quality) - probably also Burmese influence (Burmese's -k/-p/-t endings merged to a glottal stop a long time ago, only preserved in spelling)
- 阿哥 ah-ko and 阿兄 ah-hian are used interchangeably (perhaps 阿哥 is simply from Burmese အစ်ကို ah-ko for 'older brother')
- Burmese natives are called o-to-kwi (Chinese characters?)
- servant/maid is 'gin-a-sin' (Chinese characters?)
- lui (Hanzi?) used more often than standard 錢

[SimL]

Hi xiaojian,

Wow, with you and haroldmanila joining, we've expanded our geographical base so much.

Great to have you here. Hope you derive much benefit from the discussions here.

[SimL]

- 阿哥 ah-ko and 阿兄 ah-hian are used interchangeably (perhaps 阿哥 is simply from Burmese အစ်ကို ah-ko for 'older brother')

Yippee! There's my "hiaN" being used in normal life .

[Mark Yong]

Hi, xiaojian,

Welcome to the Hokkien fraternity.

xiaojian wrote:
Only my grandparents and older aunts and uncles can converse in fluent Hokkien (and Mandarin)--the younger ones, my father included, speak mostly Burmese, but can understand Hokkien, not Mandarin... I don't understand much Hokkien, unfortunately...

From the Chinese characters displayed, I presume you are educated in Mandarin?

xiaojian wrote:
- Burmese natives are called o-to-kwi (Chinese characters?)

I am guessing the 3rd morpheme is 鬼 (given the Chinese’ disparaging nature!). Is the to aspirated?

xiaojian wrote:
- servant/maid is 'gin-a-sin' (Chinese characters?)

If the first two morphemes gin-a refer to ‘child’, then it would be 囡仔.

xiaojian wrote:
- lui (Hanzi?) used more often than standard 錢

The commonly-used Chinese character is 鐳. There was a previous post in this Forum, where this URL was provided on the word’s Dutch origins: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doit

It is interesting to see how the various local languages influence the phonological shifts in Hokkien, giving them a ‘local’ flavour.

[amhoanna]

Interesting, interesting. Lots of Penang-like features! Can we speak of a "Penang-Medan-Burmese-type Hokkien"?

Some features I've noticed:
- -u rhyme instead of -i ('chopsticks' 箸 is tu -- borrowed into Burmese)
- -ua -ue diphthongs are almost like a -w- medial, as in Burmese ('big' 大 is twa, not tua)

"Penang-type Hokkien" ... borrowed into Burmese!!!

The diphthong thing reminds me of Bangkok Teochew, which does the opposite. -ua diphthongs sound like a back rounded vowel (more or less ) followed by a weak schwa, just like Siamese -ua.

I wonder if there's anywhere in Burma where young people speak Hokkien?

Do Burma Hokkiens ever write words or sentences in Hokkien using the Burmese alphabet?

[xiaojian]

From the Chinese characters displayed, I presume you are educated in Mandarin?

Yes, English and Burmese are my personal strengths, but I did also attend Chinese school as a child to learn Mandarin, so I am proficient, but my pronunciation is terrible. Definitely not native-like.

I am guessing the 3rd morpheme is 鬼 (given the Chinese’ disparaging nature!). Is the to aspirated?

The to is unaspirated, with an almost glottal stop-like quality. According to my mom, in Yongding Hakka, the same word is pronounced 'wo-tok-kwi', so it may very well be 鬼.

I wonder if there's anywhere in Burma where young people speak Hokkien?

Most Hokkien speakers live in Lower Burma (around the rice-growing delta region, where many Southern Chinese settled). Unfortunately, most ethnic Chinese of the younger generations are either monolingual in Burmese or bilingual in Burmese and Mandarin, not their mother dialects, especially given China's clout in the Burmese economy and combined with the fact that many Burmese Chinese immigrate or work in Yunnan, Singapore and Taiwan. Also, intermarriage between the dialect groups has become more common nowadays, so families usually find that their common languages are either Mandarin, Burmese or English. In the past, it was taboo for Hokkiens to marry 'outsiders' (i.e. Hakkas and Toisan speakers).

Interesting, interesting. Lots of Penang-like features! Can we speak of a "Penang-Medan-Burmese-type Hokkien"?

Perhaps this is the case. A lot of Hokkien migrants landed in Rangoon via Penang during the colonial period.

Do Burma Hokkiens ever write words or sentences in Hokkien using the Burmese alphabet?

The Burmese script is pretty well-suited for transcribing Hokkien (it has a full set of aspirated, unaspirated consonants, can form all the finals for Hokkien, but lacks some initials and vowels), but usually, writing is done in Mandarin.

I've noticed that in letters and greeting cards, if the Hokkien pronunciation is intended, there will be a small transcription in Burmese to approximate the phrase (like greetings, 新年快樂 would be transcribed 'Sin Ni Kwai(ng) La' (စင်နီး ခွိုင်းလာ or family terms/honorifics, like 阿姊, transcribed a-kyi အကျိ or အကြည့်) or name.

Some other things I've noted:
- Usually formal readings for people's given names: (e.g. 天正 is Thian-cheng, 海水 is Hai-swee, but some exceptions; my grandmother's name, 金葉, is read Kim-hyor, with hyor being an informal reading)
- Nasalized 阿 = 俺 (not sure if it's specific to certain regions), but 俺公俺嬤 are almost universal, while 阿公阿嬤 are almost unheard of. Also, nicknames tend to use 俺 (my uncle's pet name is 俺明, an-beng), not 阿.
- -eng instead of -ing (慶 is kheng, not khing; 明 is beng, not bing; 正 is cheng, not ching; 警 is keng, not king)
- Preference for unaspirated initial consonants, as in Burmese (姊姊 is usually unaspirated, not 'chi', more like 'ci')